Take a car with an internal combustion engine and replace everything that is needed for an electric car. Now you have a no-nonsense car.
Instead, we have a rolling data center that feels like a smartphone.
Cars getting more expensive is in all car companies’ interests.
They’re getting cheaper actually. The gigantic touchscreen is cheaper than a bespoke interior design with physical buttons for every model.
Of course that’s not reflected in the price
cheaper for the car maker, not for the end consumer.
That’s one part of the system.
You should check Chevy’s lineup. They’re pretty ok, the truck is expensive, but what truck isn’t?
After growing up with one, I’d rather walk blindfolded on a freeway than drive a Chevy.
Does the word “car” mean something different in the USA?
They do. Or least they sometimes do. I drive a Kia Soul EV. It’s… a Kia Soul with an electric motor and battery instead of all the internal combustion stuff.
KIA is one of the worst offenders regarding continuous surveillance and then selling the data to third parties.
Show me a single non-EV car for sale that doesn’t raise all the same objections
Why should I buy a non-electric car? I think my question got misunderstood.
no reason! I had a 2017 BMW i3 for five years and now going on five years with a 2022 Taycan wagon, I’m all for BEVs!
It’s just that no new cars, regardless of powertrain, are available without the “smart” shit
Their point is that you are just nostalgic for old cars, simpler cars. All modern cars are overcomplicated, EV or not
yes, but a lot of that overcomplication is for safety at least.
you’re much more likely to survive a big car crash in a car from today, then are you are from a car 60 years ago.
Also less likely to lose traction on wet roads and skid off than you were half a century ago.
that isnt meant to say everythings sunshine and roses, like all that equipment that enables spyware bullshit they gather on you and sell to insurance companies and marketers.
the problem is the cars have stopped being a product, and have become a medium to turn you into the product. Which is becoming a problem across many industries and the items they wish you to own.
I think it’s a salient point: It’s not just EVs. The entire industry has gone whole-hog on the “rolling data center” model.
As to “why” from your post title…well, I assumed it was a rhetorical question to introduce a (short) rant about the sad state of the automobile market.
Mostly because they can. You really need to have everything automated anyway, you need at least a backup screen, so you might as well put it on that screen. It’s probably cheaper at that point to control everything by screen than to do install buttons
There’s still some hope
This is like the System 76 of cars.
I have never bought a new car and never had any intention to because of how bad of an investment they are. If slate comes through with half the features they’ve announced, then I’ll be buying one after my 2013 Subaru Outback gives out. I play music and do lots of small rural work just outside of the city. A small truck for hauling would be perfect! I don’t want a Superlift Mega Child Crusher x4500 with double crew cab, a bed 7ft off the ground and only 34 inches long, but hey, at least it has 15,000 pounds of towing capacity for when I am hauling my drum set across town or need to take plywood to my mom’s house.
I’ve spent the last year teasing my older brother for buying a full sized truck, now that he no longer has a house or property. Joke is on me though, he just bought a huge camper to tow with it. I guess he does have use, at least a couple days of the year
Actually your recipe for an electric car is what US manufacturers tried to do because it didn’t require as much retooling. Turns out it is a pretty bad way to make an electric vehicle from scratch. The batteries are big and heavy and need their own space. The best place is in the bottom for weight distribution but instead they had to cram them in the existing engine compartment along with the motor. It’s just not as good as designing it to be electric from the ground up. Most of them were compromised and thus didn’t sell well.
Regarding the rolling data center, that’s actually a different problem that applies to pretty much all new cars. There is a growing backlash against all of these features (and lack of buttons). Unfortunately, it kind of falls on deaf ears. I think this is why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs. They take a more practical view of the vehicle. Although, I don’t actually know how much spying these Chinese vehicles do. It wouldn’t be like the Chinese to miss that opportunity.
For the laughs, look up Ford Fusion Energi [sic]. It’s a PHEV retrofit, so it has a plug, very short EV range (12 miles? - that is if you can make it run in EV mode), but the best part is the trunk - the entirety of it is taken up by the battery, with enough space for maybe a briefcase, not even a bag of groceries.
There’s a startup that is making a totally bare bones car called Slate. I really don’t understand why every car has an ipad when I just need a place for my phone and it will accomplish the same thing (minus a back up camera which I find completely unnecessary).
The problem is they have over done it. To add just one little thing you want boosts the price into the range of say a Chevy Bolt, which is a much more polished vehicle. But I do like the look and the idea. The fact that Amazon (or was it just Bezos?) is involved is as little troubling.
Jeff Bezos is one of their prime investors and is selling you a vehicle that requires you to plug your phone into it directly in order to function.
As cool as the rest of the idea sounds that makes it an instant and permanent non-starter for me.
In the US, backup cameras are mandated by law as a safety feature. It’s not an “add-on” or perk like some automakers try to imply.
Same with front end collision avoidance cameras/sensors. Those need to be in all cars manufactured for the US market by 2029.
Less spying is absolutely not why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs, it’s cheap labor and long term state backing. I have a bridge to sell to anyone who thinks Chinese EVs aren’t spying, hahaha
I’d rather have China spy on me than US corporations or state. I don’t live in China and have no fear that their surveillance will result in a fascist goon at my doorstep.
Then you’re an idiot.
because that information is gonna end up in the same markets as the information from anywhere else, and its going to fuck you over in the long term.
You’re too obsessed with government jackboots coming to your door to even consider your car and health insurance premiums skyrocketing at best, or getting dropped at worst, because your driving data was sold to them and they decided you were too much a risk despite a clean driving record.
and thats only a small example of what can be done with this data. it could affect a lot more as companies try to analyze you and your actions and catagorize you. or even better, explode your phone with advertising with every store you’re driving past.
I mean, I’d rather not be spied on at all, but at least a Chinese collector has to find an American buyer, whereas the American collector is the American buyer. But I agree with you, mass surveillance is bad no matter who is doing it.
That’s where I’m at. What’s China realistically going to do with that data?? If I’m going to be spied on no matter what I’d rather have it be done by a country across the world and get a reasonably priced EV too.
Sell it to the same people that ford and everyone else are, so it can be used to fuck you over on jobs, insurance, etc etc.
Well… Yes.
I have actually converted an old diesel land rover to electric. NDA so I can’t disclose the company, but we replaced the transmission with an electric motor that had an adapter plate to the original transfer case. The engine was replaced with a large battery pack and some electric pumps, handfull of heat exchangers. As you said, converting is never as good. A big heavy pack where the motor was makes it more front heavy than with the diesel 4 cylinder, range was about 120 miles which is pretty piss poor compared to what it could do with the diesel powertrain. It was very cool in theory, but not a practical vehicle. Another company has done a different ev conversion on some of the LR’s and they used a Tesla drivetrain if I’m not mistaken, and had to split up the battery pack and spread it across 3 different locations in the vehicle. Purpose built evs are definatley the way for packaging, although repowering classics that only get tooled around here and there to get ice cream or go golfing on the weekend is a neat concept. The weight distribution of the components is just so different from an ice that it necessitates a ground up design. Electric motors are far lighter than ice engines, but they need FAR more weight in battery packs than a tank of fuel for comparable range so u cant exactly just replace the fuel tank with a battery pack and expect it to go far.
why would such work require an nda?
Because the company that “builds” the ev converted vehicle actually just designs and sources parts + the vehicle, our shop is the one that actually built them (at least for the USA based clients). I’m not sure the buyer knows it was done by us or not, I’m sure it doesn’t much matter. There’s only a handful of companies that offer this so it wouldnt be too hard for u to narrow it down to a couple!
Ah. So it’s kind of a secret that they don’t do their own work…
Is it just fancy and expensive cars that do this? I have an old hatchback I’d like to convert, but otherwise it would go to the scrapyard.
there are dozens of ev cars which are simply converted from antique ones Oo
Elon Musk started a grift in 2012 that EVs should be expensive. To try and add value to what is a less expensive car to produce, he added a plethora of gimmickry and US consumers love gadgetry. By 2022, battery prices plunged 90% and Teslas were the highest profit margin vehicles in the industry.
Detroit watched all this and decided to to the same thing, but Detroit had too many “luxury” models and after pandemic gouging, customers kept away. No one bought their EVs. Stellantis lost $80B in value and has 430,000 unsold cars sitting on lots right now, rotting.
This all pushed customers to Korean brands, as Detroit decided they had no interest in affordability. Boom times for Honda, Kia/Hyundai and Toyota.
I can’t believe I’m about to defend Elon Musk.
Prior to Tesla, the very few EVs that existed were dopey-looking and had no range. Tesla’s founders (not Elon) realized that lithium battery technology made an actually-good EV possible. They made the Roadster, which was expensive and impressively fast but barebones. Elon horned his way in and took the company on this strategy path: sell that expensive car to create and sell a more mass-market, slightly less expensive car. Then use the money from that car to make an even cheaper mass-market car. That was the Model S/X, and then the Model 3/Y, respectively. It wasn’t that this fancy shit was some sham to trick people, it was what a small barely-funded company had to do. It worked out pretty well until they lost the plot a few years ago.
Making a software-defined car does have its benefits too: adding functionality, detecting issues before you get stranded by a breakdown, an improved infotainment experience. You can argue about the merits of those, but realize that the whole industry does this now - for better or worse. But to say that Tesla tricked people into wasting their money on gee-whiz tech is a dishonest representation of EV history.
By 2022, battery prices plunged 90% and Teslas were the highest profit margin vehicles in the industry.
This plunge in battery prices happened specifically because of Tesla making EVs mass-market.
Legacy auto fumbling the EV transition is due entirely to their hubris and incompetence.
That being said, Elon Musk is a Nazi just like Henry Ford before him.
Then use the money from that car to make an even cheaper mass-market car. That was the Model S/X,
Just to nitpick, the gull-wing doors on the Model X were neither cheap nor practical. They were a really dumb expensive idea
Agree. But I think my point is still legit.
Well, yeah. There’s a reason I didn’t critique anything else
At least in the silicon valley I think they got a jump from the “cool” factor over everything else that could use the HOV lane. A good friend of mine was working for a company and the SVP had I think a Bentley and a top of the line 911 but drove a Prius to work every day purely to use the HOV lane. That type of person was more than happy to buy a 6 figure S to ditch his Prius…
The smartphone like gadgets and flash are not built to drive and live with every day.
Those features exist for the salesperson to dazzle you with. Some people see a large LCD or shiny wheels and their lizard brain takes over.
Chinese companies are exporting basic EVs like you’re talking about that sell for like $15k. Sadly if you’re American you can’t buy one because Freedom!!!
I have a BYD dolphin and it’s great!
They sell for $15k in China, but you can’t compare those prices. Canada and Australia have allowed Chinese EV imports, nothing is below $40K in Canada, Australia has the BYD Atto, at $20k, but it’s a cheaply built car, likely disposable.
You’re right, the foreign prices are higher because of tariffs and other govt fees, shipping, storage, etc. and markups added by dealers because they can. But the end prices tend to be 25-30% less than other EVs with similar basic specs (minus frills).
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Because cars, and especially evs, are units of luxury. Luxury don’t have to be reasonable or convenient - au contraire many luxurious items were made inconvenient on purpose.
Automakers just don’t build cheap, reliable, serviceable cars.
OP is drinking the oil industry Kool Aid. All cars come with the same sensors and send the same data home. It has nothing to do with the engine.
We should have laws against it, but it certainly isn’t limitteed to EVs.
Rivian gas vehicles have zero sensors. Checkmate athiests!
All cars come with the same sensors and send the same data home. It has nothing to do with the engine.
You wish to elaborate on that bold claim a little? Because there’s a ton of sensors that are present in combustion engine but not in EVs and they have everything to do with the engine.
You must be invulnerable to arrows, with your ability to miss the point.
If only I had asked for clarification to better understand the point.
All the location, video and entertainment data harvested on EVs is harvested on ICE.
You completely missed the point. OP made a claim “EV cars have lots of gimmicks”, this comment is saying “so do non EV cars”.
this comment is saying “so do non EV cars”
It’s not though. Perhaps that is what they mean which is why I asked for clarification but it sure is not what they said.
The discussion isn’t about oxygen sensors or knock sensors. They’re talking about all the ‘smart’ features that send all kinds of information about you to the manufacturers. These systems are present in almost all modern cars.
GPS location data, speed, acceleration, braking, video, driver weight, passenger weight, radio preference, podcasts, music,…
The trick is to drive a 20 year old car. I’ve got zero interest in new cars - I wouldn’t want one even for free. Every time I have to drive one I get extremely frustrated by all the pointless features that I have no use for and are just acting as a distraction. Hell, I almost hit a cyclist once because the car wouldn’t let me cross the centre line.
The day my truck dies I’ll just buy another identical one and keep the old one as parts truck. It has everything I need and nothing I don’t… …except automatic wipers.
I think that that’s kind of a problem with almost all new cars, not just EVs.
Slate’s a pretty stripped-down EV. It’s got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_(vehicle)
No cell radio. Doesn’t even have power windows in the base configuration; it comes with air conditioning and air bags and that’s about it.
Note that the range is shorter than, say, a Tesla Model 3 or something.
Neat. And it looks like it’s only 50% more expensive compared to a comparable gas car, which is a huge improvement from the last time I looked.
Let’s see what Slate actually sells, if they sell anything at all.
Give me AC, A heat pump, 300 miles of range. And two basic speakers. If it doesn’t make the 1998 beater i got when i was 19 look fully loaded it aint basic enough. I need to not die from the elements and for it to go from A to B while blasting low quality buttrock.
Well, that’s the Slate with a couple addons
The range is shorter than a Tesla but the price is about a third so it’s not so bad when you factor that in. I wish Slate success I really like their approach to the automobile, they remind me of Framework computer on wheels.
Yeah I hope they succeed: we really need something like that.
I understand why they’re building a truck but I really wish they hadn’t. With that low range and the suv/fastback kits being extra cost, it’s not as compelling to me as it should be
I know a part of me wonders if a two seat with flat bed pickup was significantly cheaper than a four seat car with trunk.
I know what you mean but it’s hard to believe.
However it’s easier to believe
- A huge part of the us want a truck, even if they’d be better served by other vehicle types
- When the goal is being modular, you can turn a truck into an suv, but not vice versa
Estimated range: 205 miles.
So real world 150, 100 in winter.
It would do better without the aero of a barn.
It’s got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.
I believe that is a mistake, carplay and android auto are designed to work well when driving, my phone automatically removes all text message notifications and makes me not even notice getting texted to prevent me from getting distracted.
I would like a stripped down car that still has Carplay/Android Auto.
I’m pretty sure you can choose to install an entertainment center if you wish to. But why should those of us who do not want have to pay?
You can install head units into older cars easily to do this. Did it with my old Ute. Android auto for a song.
This would be solved by putting space in the dash for people to install their own head units.
Which they’re doing.
Didn’t look like it every time I checked
There’s a huge space in the dash, it’s basically a large glove box. A radio or screen can be hidden behind the door or built into it, whatever you prefer.
Choice and DIY is a big part of Slate’s thing. I don’t need or want a screen and would not like a car with a big space for one. I’ll add it later if I change my mind.
The images and wording are really vague and I couldn’t tell if it was for a head unit or just a bluetooth speaker like the electric microcars do.
Am I the only person who uses my phone as the head unit?
The guy I’m replying to already explained why that is suboptimal for him.
Interesting. Android auto always makes me more distracted vs if the phone was just normal.
See I like this but man is it expensive. It fits every category I need, well except range.
It’s got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.
I’m not sure how that will be road legal in the USA because after the passage of a law in 2018 all vehicles under 10,000 lbs require a backup camera.
“Today’s final rule requires all vehicles under 10,000 pounds, including buses and trucks, manufactured on or after May 1, 2018, to come equipped with rear visibility technology that expands the field of view to enable the driver of a motor vehicle to detect areas behind the vehicle to reduce death and injury resulting from backover incidents. The field of view must include a 10-foot by 20-foot zone directly behind the vehicle. The system must also meet other requirements including image size, linger time, response time, durability, and deactivation.”
Gotcha, thank you for that. So they DO have a screen, but its normally in use for the speed/charge gauge cluster, etc. Good solution.
they can put the backup camera display integrated into the rear view mirror, many models of cars had this before the built in tablet computer became ubiquitous.
This is stupid design. When I’m going backward it’s always better to have more view angles: rear mirror, side mirrors, backing camera, all of them have different view angle and their use. Blocking mirror with camera display is like losing an eye.
We’ll, I have a rear video in mirror and you’re completely wrong.
Yeah I might get a used slate someday.
