Gang, this isn’t complicated. You fight the Democratic establishment 364 days a year. On election day you pick the lesser evil, which hopefully all that fighting you did made much less evil. We have an archaic election system, and until that changes (work to change it), that’s the best path forward.
In other words, voting isn’t enough: it’s merely the first step. After “your guys” are in power, you should bully them into keeping their promises and doing more
You only do that at the booth, and then you are vocal about the issues that matter to you. From social media to marching in the streets and everything in between
Civics education is bad to nonexistent so they do not learn about the spoiler effect, let alone the inevitable math behind first past the post elections. People vote based on how they think the system ought to function instead of how it actually functions.
Gang, this isn’t complicated. You make demands, but declare ahead of time you will not take any action to harm the Dems by not voting for them, and this give up all leverage. Then they continue to lock in GOP policies, that’s tye best path forward.
He explicitly said that by declaring ahead of time that you will vote for whatever candidate they have no reason to change their establishment or respond to your “fighting” it. The only point of leverage that you have over them is not voting for them, which deprives them of the power and wealth that they’re trying to seek by being elected. So, if you surrender that single point of leverage, then what does your fighting consist of?
Oh yeah, cause the main point of politics to American liberals isn’t to weild power or alter policy. It’s to demonstrate that they, personally, are better people. And leftists not accepting their VBNMW failed nonsense is an unacceptable contradiction to that self image.
Yeah, but here we are with you replying to a snippet of my original point for some reason. That and othering instead of articulating a clear point. It’s rough all over.
I cannot stomach voting for someone who sent billions to commit genocide with. That is my voice, and my opinion. What should I do with that on election day, you think?
Good job, the alternative that you and people like you chose by sitting around and doing nothing to prove your superiority is much better! Schoolgirls got bombed! The global markets were disrupted! Elon is a trillionaire! Environmental protections were removed and human lives were valued at 0 by the EPA! Trans people are openly punished and laws are being written to prevent them using public restrooms! Screwworms and measels are returning to the US! The entire planet hates the US (rightfully so and even more than they did before) and historic allies are turning against us! The US openly aligned with Israel and started a war for no reason!
I’m sure glad you couldn’t bear the weight of voting, you’re an inspirational beacon and the world thanks you for what you didn’t do
You misunderstand. Our current situation is exactly what your proposed strategy got us. You are proposing business as usual politics, and that’s exactly what we’ve been doing for decades. And for decades, things have gotten worse. This is not working. You’d have to be pretty fucking naive to stick to the same strategy that got us to where we are today (full blown fascism).
My guy, your point is not a subtle or nuanced as you think. It’s literally the default opinion in a liberal democracy. That’s not an indictment of the point, but it does mean I’ve heard it a thousand times before, and it’s not hard to understand. Independently of that it is empirically wrong though.
I never said it was nuanced nor subtle. I’ve said it as pretty fucking plainly and obviously as I could, and you’re still too dense to understand it. You are the reason we’re where we are
No, I think I will worry about election day, thank you very much. Voting is one of the most important ways to steer politicians toward working for your benefit. So please tell me, in your world view, what should I do with my voice and opinion on election day?
Bonus question: if you guarantee your vote to a party, regardless of what they do (such as commit a genocide, such as expand ICE, such as building the border wall, such as keeping Guantanamo bay open, such as never taxing the rich more, and so on), what incentive do they have to listen to you? And follow up, if your answer is that democrats do still work for the electorate, why are they moving further and further right, away from the interests and opinions of most Americans? (This is measurable, see for examples the 2014 paper Testing theories of American politics which found that policy positions of politicians align perfectly with those of economic elites, and with those of average voters really only ever by accident)
Start with learning the difference between the way things ought to be (they really should- it would be so easy) and the way things actually are. Knowing is half the battle!
So, this is not the alternative though, right? Our current situation and political landscape is exactly where decades of blue no matter who got us. It’s time to change strategies, because this isn’t working.
Or is it where decades of mostly ignoring anything but presidential elections has gotten us? Where mot participating in most of the process has gotten us and then we want there to be just the choice we want, waiting for us at the end?
Again, you seem to be willingly missing the point. Up until the election, you had an entire year to fight tooth and nail for better. At the election, you only have two choices and no amount of “they both suck I refuse to do anything but sit here and tell everyone else they fucked up by letting it get to this point” will change that. You had two choices only and refused to make a single one, letting the worst happen.
Are you aware of the world around you enough to know how it got here? They voted red every single time and pulled things slightly more to the right every time they could. They didn’t like their candidates, but they understood they won’t get where they want to immediately. You have to incrementally get there because people are awful and scared of change so they kept working at it election by election. Meanwhile, people like you said “well this is not the perfect choice so I’m going to sit around and pout about it” and do nothing to even slow their progress.
No I understand your point. I just strongly disagree with it, mainly because reality just doesn’t line up with what you’re saying. What signs do you have that your current strategy is working? Like, actually. What signs are you getting from reality make you think “well geeze, we’ve got this down pat.”
Get the fuck over yourself. It’s not “because they disagreed with your opinion” it’s because there was a choice to make between openly bombing children and giving ICE more funding than the military or keeping the status quo, which is an embarassing choice for sure and it’s goddamn disgusting those were the only options, but keeping the status quo would have been easier to come back from than coming back from whatever the fuck is happening now. Grow the fuck up and learn to make adult decisions
fight the Democratic establishment 364 days a year
just to be accused of supporting teh republicans? i mean i’ll do it, but lets be honest: the democrat supporters aren’t trying to have a good faith discussion about the shortcomings of the party.
You gotta fight from within. “I’ve voted Democrat and will continue to support the party, but [insert list of grievances]” plays a lot better than “I do not understand how US election work so I helped get Trump elected, now give me what I want”.
Centrists interpret all criticism as “I do not understand how US election work so I helped get Trump elected, now give me what I want” and have never given a shit about how anyone actually voted.
Condescension will never be a substitute for policies people want, charismatic candidates, and a willingness to keep campaign promises. But since centrists don’t have any of those, they go with what they have.
I hate to break it to you, but I’m left of Sanders. Understanding how our election system (poorly) functions is essential if we are ever going to fix it. Knowing is half the battle!
We have an archaic election system, and until that changes (work to change it), that’s the best path forward.
Classic thread. People have jumped from putting words in my mouth to tell me those words are wrong to pre-emptively doing it. I guess Lemmy suffers from the same weekend awfulness of other sites.
What would appease you? You can view my comment history and scroll past many left posts. Maybe you’ll find something in there that fits your narrative? Would you like me to post a Political Compass, PEW Political Topology, or some other test? A note from my doctor?
Or is it simply, “hey, this guy who openly acknowledged our system is outdated and bad is trying to explain how coalitions work within it- what a [insert othering words of choice]” and that’s where we live now?
Funny how the coalition you tout only moves right.
Probably because there is this widespread view on the left that is a combination of not understanding how our government/elections work and not understanding political coalitions as demonstrated by this thread. That and thinking that showing up once a year (let’s be real, once every 4 years) to make a token gesture without doing the 364 days of fighting is enough. Hard to get what you want without participating and/or even understanding the situation.
When has the USA ever not been murdering people? You think not voting against the guy who murders more people is sending a message? Now we’re into full on magic-based thinking.
When does it become wrong? Doing the only thing you like is no longer a winning position. Your electorate are better people than you’re trying to force them to be.
Fun story, my second-to-last straw with Reddit was being banned from r/democrats for saying Biden should not seek a second term (too old) and they need to hold a primary. I said this repeatedly starting about a year before the election and was called all manner of terrible things while accumulating loads of up and downvotes. When the time for a primary passed I pivoted my message to: Biden should retire (play up a medical issue) so we have the first female president and she has the incumbent bump for the election. I was banned with the message “Shut up, Biden is going to get a second term. Deal with it [inappropriate language].” twelve days before Biden dropped out.
Trump won because the billionaires who own this country saw an unprecedented opportunity, and in no small part because of the “pied piper” strategy that Hillary and the corporate dems thought would ensure an easy win
4 is deduced from 1,2,3 the deduction is just using definition and the fact both parties lead to the same outcome to come to a contradiction
Both parties have been elected (1), both led to (2), both aren’t representative (3), You can’t blame voters if they have no power over the outcome, there’s no democracy in US
If the point you’re trying to make is that outcome is irrelevant and only voting itself is what constitutes a democracy then this needs to be applied to other countries as well, North Korea is a democracy
Both parties definitely don’t lead to the same outcome. One party supports cutting welfare for the poor and the other party doesn’t.
This statement is inherently contradictory. So one party is for cutting welfare. If they win, welfare gets cut. If the other pary wins, welfare stays the same, or gets cut only a little (good ol across the aisle compromise). Next cycle the other party wins, welfare gets cut. Same outcome.
Now, if the other party was for increased welfare, or for stopping fracking, or for naturalizing more undocumented immigrants, or for reducing military spending, then you’d have a point. But in selling the democratic party as the alternative to vote for, you can’t even bring yourself to say they stand for something positive. Best we get is that they’re not actively harmful on purpose.
When the “good” party eschews primaries because they cannot abide giving the people an opportunity to vote against genocide, that’s only democracy to people who like genocide.
It’s a gradient. Did you get to decide who you’re allowed to vote for? Do they represent your actual interests? Do you have a say over what happens in your city or your workplace?
Gang, this isn’t complicated. You fight the Democratic establishment 364 days a year. On election day you pick the lesser evil, which hopefully all that fighting you did made much less evil. We have an archaic election system, and until that changes (work to change it), that’s the best path forward.
In other words, voting isn’t enough: it’s merely the first step. After “your guys” are in power, you should bully them into keeping their promises and doing more
Remember when the vote blue no matter who people told us they were gonna move Biden left after he was elected?
Good times.
Now they say he’s the most progressive President we ever had. So progressive he lost us abortion.
So progressive he broke a strike. So progressive he bragged about record oil production. So progressive he supported a genocide.
How do you bully people by guaranteeing your support for them unconditionally?
You only do that at the booth, and then you are vocal about the issues that matter to you. From social media to marching in the streets and everything in between
Ok then what? You yell from the rooftops “I strongly disapprove of what you are doing! I will still vote for you, but I’m not happy about it!”
Politician: “Ok good, you’re still voting for me. Well, back to the fundraising event.”
yeah, I do that and I see the results. Constant abuse and accusations of being a trumper from the genocide wing. No change. Like you want.
How?
As an non-american, how this is not crystal clear even for the most hardcore communists is an absolute mystery to me.
Because the US first past the post system ensures there’s only two parties. So unless you can threaten one, you don’t have input.
They don’t even have FPTP. They have an electoral college. Basically more states have a larger voting power than others.
The US has both. FPTP elections, and the presidency controlled by unequal votes depending on state.
Civics education is bad to nonexistent so they do not learn about the spoiler effect, let alone the inevitable math behind first past the post elections. People vote based on how they think the system ought to function instead of how it actually functions.
“If you don’t accept genocide like I want, you don’t understand how anything works!”
You like the system how it is because you get the results you want.
Because it’s logically stupid and ushered in fascism.
As a non-american, you aren’t close enough to notice that the people who say this are taking advantage of the situation and have been for decades.
As a non-american, here in my country leftists vote for many different parties, each too small to actually pass the threshold
Gang, this isn’t complicated. You make demands, but declare ahead of time you will not take any action to harm the Dems by not voting for them, and this give up all leverage. Then they continue to lock in GOP policies, that’s tye best path forward.
So many sick burns from people who do not read well.
He explicitly said that by declaring ahead of time that you will vote for whatever candidate they have no reason to change their establishment or respond to your “fighting” it. The only point of leverage that you have over them is not voting for them, which deprives them of the power and wealth that they’re trying to seek by being elected. So, if you surrender that single point of leverage, then what does your fighting consist of?
Buddy, I read your dumb argument. You’re surrendering on the only day that matters and wonder why you never win.
Centrists love to pretend that people who don’t buy their shitty arguments are just too stupid to understand them.
Oh yeah, cause the main point of politics to American liberals isn’t to weild power or alter policy. It’s to demonstrate that they, personally, are better people. And leftists not accepting their VBNMW failed nonsense is an unacceptable contradiction to that self image.
It really is just secular Calvinism.
I’d expect more than Reddit level comprehension from people on Lemmy
Yeah, but here we are with you replying to a snippet of my original point for some reason. That and othering instead of articulating a clear point. It’s rough all over.
Fellas please, an election is not the time and place to make your voice heard.
You must have missed this part where you are making your voice heard by picking the least bad option, so here it is again:
Or maybe you’re confused about how things ought to be versus how they actually are, that too was covered:
I cannot stomach voting for someone who sent billions to commit genocide with. That is my voice, and my opinion. What should I do with that on election day, you think?
Good job, the alternative that you and people like you chose by sitting around and doing nothing to prove your superiority is much better! Schoolgirls got bombed! The global markets were disrupted! Elon is a trillionaire! Environmental protections were removed and human lives were valued at 0 by the EPA! Trans people are openly punished and laws are being written to prevent them using public restrooms! Screwworms and measels are returning to the US! The entire planet hates the US (rightfully so and even more than they did before) and historic allies are turning against us! The US openly aligned with Israel and started a war for no reason!
I’m sure glad you couldn’t bear the weight of voting, you’re an inspirational beacon and the world thanks you for what you didn’t do
You misunderstand. Our current situation is exactly what your proposed strategy got us. You are proposing business as usual politics, and that’s exactly what we’ve been doing for decades. And for decades, things have gotten worse. This is not working. You’d have to be pretty fucking naive to stick to the same strategy that got us to where we are today (full blown fascism).
Wow, it’s almost impressive how you are so insanely dedicated to missing the entire point. You obviously are not capable of understanding a damn thing
My guy, your point is not a subtle or nuanced as you think. It’s literally the default opinion in a liberal democracy. That’s not an indictment of the point, but it does mean I’ve heard it a thousand times before, and it’s not hard to understand. Independently of that it is empirically wrong though.
I never said it was nuanced nor subtle. I’ve said it as pretty fucking plainly and obviously as I could, and you’re still too dense to understand it. You are the reason we’re where we are
What are you whining about? You got the genocide you wanted.
Worry less about election day and more about those 364 days.
No, I think I will worry about election day, thank you very much. Voting is one of the most important ways to steer politicians toward working for your benefit. So please tell me, in your world view, what should I do with my voice and opinion on election day?
Bonus question: if you guarantee your vote to a party, regardless of what they do (such as commit a genocide, such as expand ICE, such as building the border wall, such as keeping Guantanamo bay open, such as never taxing the rich more, and so on), what incentive do they have to listen to you? And follow up, if your answer is that democrats do still work for the electorate, why are they moving further and further right, away from the interests and opinions of most Americans? (This is measurable, see for examples the 2014 paper Testing theories of American politics which found that policy positions of politicians align perfectly with those of economic elites, and with those of average voters really only ever by accident)
Start with learning the difference between the way things ought to be (they really should- it would be so easy) and the way things actually are. Knowing is half the battle!
Oh great thanks for the advice! Any chance you have an answer to literally any of the questions I asked?
I did.
Grow up and do the best thing that the situation allows. To see what the alternative is… [gestures vaguely at the world]
So, this is not the alternative though, right? Our current situation and political landscape is exactly where decades of blue no matter who got us. It’s time to change strategies, because this isn’t working.
Or is it where decades of mostly ignoring anything but presidential elections has gotten us? Where mot participating in most of the process has gotten us and then we want there to be just the choice we want, waiting for us at the end?
Again, you seem to be willingly missing the point. Up until the election, you had an entire year to fight tooth and nail for better. At the election, you only have two choices and no amount of “they both suck I refuse to do anything but sit here and tell everyone else they fucked up by letting it get to this point” will change that. You had two choices only and refused to make a single one, letting the worst happen.
Are you aware of the world around you enough to know how it got here? They voted red every single time and pulled things slightly more to the right every time they could. They didn’t like their candidates, but they understood they won’t get where they want to immediately. You have to incrementally get there because people are awful and scared of change so they kept working at it election by election. Meanwhile, people like you said “well this is not the perfect choice so I’m going to sit around and pout about it” and do nothing to even slow their progress.
No I understand your point. I just strongly disagree with it, mainly because reality just doesn’t line up with what you’re saying. What signs do you have that your current strategy is working? Like, actually. What signs are you getting from reality make you think “well geeze, we’ve got this down pat.”
Okay, so then tell me how not voting worked out for you? Fix anything?
You won the instant we were cheated out of a primary and both candidates were pro-genocide like you.
You seem to be making a hell of a lot of assumptions and straw men based on… Nothing. Please let the adults talk
“Grow up” fuck off with that. Telling other adults they aren’t adult because they don’t agree with your opinion? Fuck right the fuck off.
Get the fuck over yourself. It’s not “because they disagreed with your opinion” it’s because there was a choice to make between openly bombing children and giving ICE more funding than the military or keeping the status quo, which is an embarassing choice for sure and it’s goddamn disgusting those were the only options, but keeping the status quo would have been easier to come back from than coming back from whatever the fuck is happening now. Grow the fuck up and learn to make adult decisions
We tried to tell you that you would lose if you didn’t change. You screamed abuse.
“Grow up and use your vote to do what’s best for me”
Fixed it for you, clown
You like the part where the margin between “least bad” and “most bad” keeps narrowing.
just to be accused of supporting teh republicans? i mean i’ll do it, but lets be honest: the democrat supporters aren’t trying to have a good faith discussion about the shortcomings of the party.
You gotta fight from within. “I’ve voted Democrat and will continue to support the party, but [insert list of grievances]” plays a lot better than “I do not understand how US election work so I helped get Trump elected, now give me what I want”.
I voted Democrat but they don’t get a blank check from me. I’ll support them when they are worth it.
Have you actually tried to do that? Like seriously tried? It was nepo babies all the way down when I attempted to “fight from within”.
It seems like the idea is gaining traction. Mamdani’s election is a watershed moment.
Mamdani was elected with the “vote blue as long as they support genocide” wing opposing him after the primaries.
Centrists interpret all criticism as “I do not understand how US election work so I helped get Trump elected, now give me what I want” and have never given a shit about how anyone actually voted.
Condescension will never be a substitute for policies people want, charismatic candidates, and a willingness to keep campaign promises. But since centrists don’t have any of those, they go with what they have.
I hate to break it to you, but I’m left of Sanders. Understanding how our election system (poorly) functions is essential if we are ever going to fix it. Knowing is half the battle!
I don’t buy it. You will interpret my lack of trust as a lack of understanding.
Classic thread. People have jumped from putting words in my mouth to tell me those words are wrong to pre-emptively doing it. I guess Lemmy suffers from the same weekend awfulness of other sites.
What would appease you? You can view my comment history and scroll past many left posts. Maybe you’ll find something in there that fits your narrative? Would you like me to post a Political Compass, PEW Political Topology, or some other test? A note from my doctor?
Or is it simply, “hey, this guy who openly acknowledged our system is outdated and bad is trying to explain how coalitions work within it- what a [insert othering words of choice]” and that’s where we live now?
Stop demanding what amounts to unquestioning fealty to the genocide wing of the party. That’s what you can do.
Funny how the coalition you tout only moves right.
Probably because there is this widespread view on the left that is a combination of not understanding how our government/elections work and not understanding political coalitions as demonstrated by this thread. That and thinking that showing up once a year (let’s be real, once every 4 years) to make a token gesture without doing the 364 days of fighting is enough. Hard to get what you want without participating and/or even understanding the situation.
Hey, I really don’t like how you’re murdering people, but I won’t stop shopping at your store. I’m going to change it from the inside
When has the USA ever not been murdering people? You think not voting against the guy who murders more people is sending a message? Now we’re into full on magic-based thinking.
You ever think that deciding you can’t not murder people is part of the problem?
Serious Good German energy here.
Not once. Centrists consider dead Palestinians to be a solution, not a problem.
When does it become wrong? Doing the only thing you like is no longer a winning position. Your electorate are better people than you’re trying to force them to be.
“Hey I don’t like that guy raping babies and blowing up school girls, but I’ll just stand here and do nothing that could have stopped him, either”
What exactly did you do that could have stopped him?
You realize Kamala said Iran was the biggest threat to America, supported the Israeli genocide of Gaza, and wanted a more lethal military?
Progressives told you that genocide support was a losing issue. You preferred losing to trump over telling netanyahu no.
Get called a trumper 364 days a year by people who love how much like trump the democratic establishment is constantly trying to become.
Fun story, my second-to-last straw with Reddit was being banned from r/democrats for saying Biden should not seek a second term (too old) and they need to hold a primary. I said this repeatedly starting about a year before the election and was called all manner of terrible things while accumulating loads of up and downvotes. When the time for a primary passed I pivoted my message to: Biden should retire (play up a medical issue) so we have the first female president and she has the incumbent bump for the election. I was banned with the message “Shut up, Biden is going to get a second term. Deal with it [inappropriate language].” twelve days before Biden dropped out.
Are they still refusing to admit Mamdani exists?
No, now they claim somehow that’s proof their VBNMW nonsense works.
Despite Mandami showing it only goes one way
The Dems get worse every cycle.
The best path forward is labor organization leading to a general strike, your vote is as worthless as your opinion
I love your idea of a labour union while openly telling someone’s voice is useless.
My idea of a labor union doesn’t involve a rigged voting system, fucking duh
Work to change it, how?
By illegally taking away capital from the people illegally fighting back against that change?
You’re not in a democracy, stop solving your problems democratically
By backing AOC and other progressives.
Lol fuck off
How is the United States not a democracy?
Your vote doesn’t fucking matter, that’s how
Is that why Trump won?
Trump won because the billionaires who own this country saw an unprecedented opportunity, and in no small part because of the “pied piper” strategy that Hillary and the corporate dems thought would ensure an easy win
Trump won in 2024 because he was the candidate who got the highest number of votes. Votes that mattered btw.
Harris won the primaries because votes don’t matter.
Most delegates voted for by Democratic party members voted for Harris to be the nominee.
Lol electoral votes maybe, unless you’re a member of the electoral college your vote did fuck all
Trump won the popular vote in 2024
Trump actually won a primary, unlike Kamala.
Which goes on to show that votes actually matter. If it didn’t, we might have Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley or Vivek Ramaswamy as president.
Lol cope
(1)In a democracy the people elect a representative of their ideology to govern them in fair elections
(2)Both parties in the US in the 21st century start wars on foreign countries, lie about policies, submit to corrupt lobbying
(3)Both parties in the US are not representative of the people of the US
(4)The US is not a democracy
Which of these is wrong?
(4) because both parties are elected to power by voters
4 is deduced from 1,2,3 the deduction is just using definition and the fact both parties lead to the same outcome to come to a contradiction
Both parties have been elected (1), both led to (2), both aren’t representative (3), You can’t blame voters if they have no power over the outcome, there’s no democracy in US
If the point you’re trying to make is that outcome is irrelevant and only voting itself is what constitutes a democracy then this needs to be applied to other countries as well, North Korea is a democracy
Both parties definitely don’t lead to the same outcome. One party supports cutting welfare for the poor and the other party doesn’t.
The voters absolutely have power over the outcome. They voluntarily chose Trump over Harris in 2024.
North Korea is a one party “democracy”. In the United States, you have multiple parties, more than the two that most people voluntarily vote for.
This statement is inherently contradictory. So one party is for cutting welfare. If they win, welfare gets cut. If the other pary wins, welfare stays the same, or gets cut only a little (good ol across the aisle compromise). Next cycle the other party wins, welfare gets cut. Same outcome.
Now, if the other party was for increased welfare, or for stopping fracking, or for naturalizing more undocumented immigrants, or for reducing military spending, then you’d have a point. But in selling the democratic party as the alternative to vote for, you can’t even bring yourself to say they stand for something positive. Best we get is that they’re not actively harmful on purpose.
The “other party” doesn’t necessarily need to win next cycle.
The only reason Democrats can afford to not increase welfare is because of Republican voters.
The “other party” doesn’t necessarily need to win next cycle.
The only reason Democrats can afford to not increase welfare is because of Republican voters.
When the “good” party eschews primaries because they cannot abide giving the people an opportunity to vote against genocide, that’s only democracy to people who like genocide.
You do realise that there are more than two parties right?
Suggest voting for a third and watch what happens.
Most Americans support genocide unfortunately.
It’s a gradient. Did you get to decide who you’re allowed to vote for? Do they represent your actual interests? Do you have a say over what happens in your city or your workplace?
Stuff like that
Congress very much decides what happens in cities and workplaces afaik
The electoral college.
Well, most electors are honest about which President they vote for