Ah, I can see how you’d interpret the situation that way, if you suppose fake miracles were involved. I’m not convinced there were any miracles, real or fake, rather than such things being added to the account later by charlatans to lend legitimacy to their claims.
Anyone claiming to be the messiah would have had to do miracles. It was basically how a messiah would validate his claims and not get, you know, stoned and left in a ditch somewhere. (and getting people to follow him as he massed an army to make a go at the whole World Domination thing.) the only reason we really know about him at all is because he annoyed the romans enough they got involved. (and that was less about jesus and more that the romans didn’t like locals doing their own executions. leaving bodies in ditches is very untidy, and in any case, executions were subject to roman approval, even if Herod could have ordered it.)
In point of fact, the roman occupation and oppression made such messages very very attractive to people. Which, uh. made them very easy to scam. which made grifters pretending to be the messiah and scamming them rather common. Simon bar Giora, John of Giscala, Menehem ben Judas all come to mind.
Just like people claiming Trump is the antichrist is compelling to certain segments today.
None of what Jesus is recorded as teaching is even all that new. People have been saying that people should be basically decent. But what that meant to Jesus was something rather different than what it means to us. We read far too much of our modern understanding of things into the gospels. Jesus literally had more to say about paying taxes to oppressors than he did about slavery- and yet, slavery was such a common institution that he would have seen it daily.
He would have seen slaves on a near-daily, especially after going into Jerusalem; yet never once dd he say anything about it. never once did he go to a slave market and start flipping tables.
Suffice it to say, that if there was a historical Jesus, he was an ironage charlatan who was saying what people wanted to hear, in order get money from them. And you’ll notice, they kept moving around? yeah. That’s so the people that gave money and didn’t get healed couldn’t find them.
if there wasn’t a historical Jesus… then whoever came up with all that shit is just as bad, and just as much charlatans. (and they too were faking miracles, supposedly.)
Every last word of that could be true and it still doesn’t make any difference in how right or wrong the spiritual lessons are. Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you, love your neighbor as you love yourself, worship in spirit and truth instead of following religious dogma, watch out for hypocrites and the predatory leaders of religious institutions, etc etc. Those are far more important to me than the nonsense religious sects quibble over like whether Christ actually did miracles, how a man or woman should keep their hair, baptism, and other superstitions.
watch out for hypocrites and the predatory leaders of religious institutions, etc etc.
You mean, charlatans, liars and cheats? Like. You know. Jesus?
Those are far more important to me than the nonsense religious sects quibble over like whether Christ actually did miracles,
Whether or not Jesus did any miracles (or indeed faked them) is actually the essential question here. Miracles are how he demonstrates he has divine authority- which directly translates into “moral” or “spiritual” authority. without the divine authority, he’s just another dude, right? taking that a step further, and going beyond simply not doing them, but actually faking them… yeah. That’s even worse.
But in any case, you need to actually look at what Jesus actually taught. He was a jewish fundamentalist, insisting on the supremacy of, and a strict adherence to the torah and the commands of prophets. and there is a lot- and I mean a truly astonishing amount- of horrific shit in there.
Let me explain this another way. I’m sure we could find a few times Hitler said a few nice things. Do you worship Hitler? of course not. Hitler was a fucking monster. Or Stalin? Mao? Trump? All of them have almost certainly said a few things that are “nice”… but mostly they’re just monsters. (with a critical difference that all of them were actually world leaders rather than presumed wannabes.)
Just because Jesus seems to have said some things that sound nice and stuff, doesn’t make him a moral or spiritual authority any more than it would any one else. and it certainly doesn’t make him someone or something to be worshiped.
Big yikes. It’s clear you have a huge chip on your shoulder about all this. You’re insisting on your own interpretation because it gives you justification to look down on believers no matter how reasonable their faith. Because of that dependency you’re unlikely to accept any other viewpoint, so I’m going to put this “conversation” out of its misery. Toodle-oo.
Ah, I can see how you’d interpret the situation that way, if you suppose fake miracles were involved. I’m not convinced there were any miracles, real or fake, rather than such things being added to the account later by charlatans to lend legitimacy to their claims.
Anyone claiming to be the messiah would have had to do miracles. It was basically how a messiah would validate his claims and not get, you know, stoned and left in a ditch somewhere. (and getting people to follow him as he massed an army to make a go at the whole World Domination thing.) the only reason we really know about him at all is because he annoyed the romans enough they got involved. (and that was less about jesus and more that the romans didn’t like locals doing their own executions. leaving bodies in ditches is very untidy, and in any case, executions were subject to roman approval, even if Herod could have ordered it.)
In point of fact, the roman occupation and oppression made such messages very very attractive to people. Which, uh. made them very easy to scam. which made grifters pretending to be the messiah and scamming them rather common. Simon bar Giora, John of Giscala, Menehem ben Judas all come to mind.
Just like people claiming Trump is the antichrist is compelling to certain segments today.
None of what Jesus is recorded as teaching is even all that new. People have been saying that people should be basically decent. But what that meant to Jesus was something rather different than what it means to us. We read far too much of our modern understanding of things into the gospels. Jesus literally had more to say about paying taxes to oppressors than he did about slavery- and yet, slavery was such a common institution that he would have seen it daily.
He would have seen slaves on a near-daily, especially after going into Jerusalem; yet never once dd he say anything about it. never once did he go to a slave market and start flipping tables.
Suffice it to say, that if there was a historical Jesus, he was an ironage charlatan who was saying what people wanted to hear, in order get money from them. And you’ll notice, they kept moving around? yeah. That’s so the people that gave money and didn’t get healed couldn’t find them.
if there wasn’t a historical Jesus… then whoever came up with all that shit is just as bad, and just as much charlatans. (and they too were faking miracles, supposedly.)
Every last word of that could be true and it still doesn’t make any difference in how right or wrong the spiritual lessons are. Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you, love your neighbor as you love yourself, worship in spirit and truth instead of following religious dogma, watch out for hypocrites and the predatory leaders of religious institutions, etc etc. Those are far more important to me than the nonsense religious sects quibble over like whether Christ actually did miracles, how a man or woman should keep their hair, baptism, and other superstitions.
You mean, charlatans, liars and cheats? Like. You know. Jesus?
Whether or not Jesus did any miracles (or indeed faked them) is actually the essential question here. Miracles are how he demonstrates he has divine authority- which directly translates into “moral” or “spiritual” authority. without the divine authority, he’s just another dude, right? taking that a step further, and going beyond simply not doing them, but actually faking them… yeah. That’s even worse.
But in any case, you need to actually look at what Jesus actually taught. He was a jewish fundamentalist, insisting on the supremacy of, and a strict adherence to the torah and the commands of prophets. and there is a lot- and I mean a truly astonishing amount- of horrific shit in there.
Let me explain this another way. I’m sure we could find a few times Hitler said a few nice things. Do you worship Hitler? of course not. Hitler was a fucking monster. Or Stalin? Mao? Trump? All of them have almost certainly said a few things that are “nice”… but mostly they’re just monsters. (with a critical difference that all of them were actually world leaders rather than presumed wannabes.)
Just because Jesus seems to have said some things that sound nice and stuff, doesn’t make him a moral or spiritual authority any more than it would any one else. and it certainly doesn’t make him someone or something to be worshiped.
Big yikes. It’s clear you have a huge chip on your shoulder about all this. You’re insisting on your own interpretation because it gives you justification to look down on believers no matter how reasonable their faith. Because of that dependency you’re unlikely to accept any other viewpoint, so I’m going to put this “conversation” out of its misery. Toodle-oo.