I’d say that all of these sucked to live in. There are definitely states that treat their citizens better than these. If something always leads to death and suffering, maybe we can conclude that it’s a bad idea. Communists are not “associated with“ communism, they are communism.
I remember the name of the fallacy for this one! It’s called “correlation, not causation”. If thing X is correlated with thing Y and we agree that thing Y is bad, that does not necessarily mean thing X is bad. If you want to attack thing X, you have to give reasons why X is bad or why X leads to Y, not just that the two are correlated. This is not to mean that correlation is useless–if Communism (X) is heavily correlated to death and suffering (Y), and we both agree that Y is bad, it is a signal that it could be useful to look into whether X causes Y and, if so, why/how.
Every socialist state that has ever existed has been, contextually, far better than what came before it, and in instances where socialism dissolved, better than what replaced it, for the working classes.
This is true for all of these. What’s also important is analyzing context, life expectancy doubled in both Russia and China thanks to the lives saved by socialism. Cuba has, in many years, a higher life expectancy than the US Empire. On the whole, there may be states where quality of life is higher for the working classes, but these are exclusively imperialist states that subsidize their safety nets with the spoils of plundering the global south, and is why these same countries are surging to the far-right as imperialism is decaying.
And you’d be wrong to say so. Polls in most post-communist states (except some exceptionally right wing nationalist regimes such as the Baltics or Poland) clearly tell us that most people preferred living under socialism.
When talking about the effects of socialism, we need to compare with what came before or after. And what came after was horrifying:
Ahem. I wonder if non-communist states are any different, or it’s just that birth rates dipped before/during a World War, and they were all climbing back up until ~the '80s?
Would be an interesting thing to sed. My graphs are Wikipedia screenshots from the “Demographics of X” for each country mentioned. Would you post some from, say, Spain, France, Germany, Italy, US…?
Sorry, the last time I was commenting from the toilet. I’ve done some looking up:
France:
Spain:
Germany:
Italy:
I mean, I know that 5 countries isn’t considered reliable statistics, I guess, but most of them are also on the rise in the given time period. Italy and a few other countries seemingly had a dip.
Thanks a lot for the extra info! My point was not particularly the population growth isolated, rather the total destruction of the demographics of most eastern block countries after the point in time in 1990 when the block is dissolved and the countries transition to capitalism. This is not apparent in the western capitalist countries because the dynamic of western Europe is that of imperial core whereas eastern Europe has become imperial periphery, to be exploited and denied equal footing than that of the west!
Which is a fair point. I’m not an expert by any means, but the change in population growth could have come from various effects: maybe it wasn’t the end of socialism, but the start of capitalism; maybe it wasn’t the start of capitalism, but a general uncertainty after the old system dissolved; maybe it was coming from a third source (see above); maybe it was a global phenomenon, which has been happening in developed countries ever since; I don’t know, maybe it was The Shining coming out in 1980.
Ok there is too much crazy stuff there for me to take you seriously. If you’re a person and this is your genuine position, that makes me sad. People learn nothing from history.
I hold the positions I do because I learn from history. Here are some sources on what you call “crazy:”
Life expectancy from birth, Russia
Life expectancy from birth, China
Death rate and birth rate in Russia, before, during, and after socialism
Wealth inequality in Russia, before, during, and after socialism
US vs. Chinese vs. Cuban life expectancy
Unequal exchange, graphed
The truth is that socialism works remarkably well, and I only came to this position after studying socialism in theory and practice. Same with analyzing the downfall of capitalism and imperialism, and the failures of social democracy in Europe to pivot away from imperialism.
Ffs if birth rates went up in the third reich then people should be thankful for fascism and hitler?
Was west germany a poor amd depressing dictatorship and east germany a free and prosperous country, or the other way around?
Blocking.
In the case of Germany, Eastern Germany was made to pay war reparations for the incredible damages dealt to the soviet peoples, and the 27 million people they murdered. Western Germany slapped the Nazis on their wrists, and was flooded with western cash. The social safety nets in Eastern Germany were more developed and robust, while the west had more money. West Germany was indeed a dictatorship, and certainly not free and prosperous, though it had money. Eastern Germany was poor, but had much better social care, social progressivism, and more.
Go ahead, block easily verifiable facts and statistics, I’m sure that will end up helping you.
All states are dictatorships by a given class. West Germany was capitalist, and staffed by many remnants of the Nazi party. It was a dictatorship of capital, just as modern Germany is.
That’s not a very good example, because good and bad people drink water, pretty much everyone does. Here is a list of communist states:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states_(communism)
I’d say that all of these sucked to live in. There are definitely states that treat their citizens better than these. If something always leads to death and suffering, maybe we can conclude that it’s a bad idea. Communists are not “associated with“ communism, they are communism.
I remember the name of the fallacy for this one! It’s called “correlation, not causation”. If thing X is correlated with thing Y and we agree that thing Y is bad, that does not necessarily mean thing X is bad. If you want to attack thing X, you have to give reasons why X is bad or why X leads to Y, not just that the two are correlated. This is not to mean that correlation is useless–if Communism (X) is heavily correlated to death and suffering (Y), and we both agree that Y is bad, it is a signal that it could be useful to look into whether X causes Y and, if so, why/how.
As I said elsewhere:
This is true for all of these. What’s also important is analyzing context, life expectancy doubled in both Russia and China thanks to the lives saved by socialism. Cuba has, in many years, a higher life expectancy than the US Empire. On the whole, there may be states where quality of life is higher for the working classes, but these are exclusively imperialist states that subsidize their safety nets with the spoils of plundering the global south, and is why these same countries are surging to the far-right as imperialism is decaying.
Edit: replied to the wrong comment lmao
And you’d be wrong to say so. Polls in most post-communist states (except some exceptionally right wing nationalist regimes such as the Baltics or Poland) clearly tell us that most people preferred living under socialism.
When talking about the effects of socialism, we need to compare with what came before or after. And what came after was horrifying:
Lmao @ the reply to me, obliterated me
Gommunist DESTROYED by FACTS and @
🫠
Ahem. I wonder if non-communist states are any different, or it’s just that birth rates dipped before/during a World War, and they were all climbing back up until ~the '80s?
Non-socialist states did not have that same severe drop right as socialism was dissolved.
Would be an interesting thing to sed. My graphs are Wikipedia screenshots from the “Demographics of X” for each country mentioned. Would you post some from, say, Spain, France, Germany, Italy, US…?
Sorry, the last time I was commenting from the toilet. I’ve done some looking up:
France:
Spain:
Germany:
Italy:
I mean, I know that 5 countries isn’t considered reliable statistics, I guess, but most of them are also on the rise in the given time period. Italy and a few other countries seemingly had a dip.
Thanks a lot for the extra info! My point was not particularly the population growth isolated, rather the total destruction of the demographics of most eastern block countries after the point in time in 1990 when the block is dissolved and the countries transition to capitalism. This is not apparent in the western capitalist countries because the dynamic of western Europe is that of imperial core whereas eastern Europe has become imperial periphery, to be exploited and denied equal footing than that of the west!
Which is a fair point. I’m not an expert by any means, but the change in population growth could have come from various effects: maybe it wasn’t the end of socialism, but the start of capitalism; maybe it wasn’t the start of capitalism, but a general uncertainty after the old system dissolved; maybe it was coming from a third source (see above); maybe it was a global phenomenon, which has been happening in developed countries ever since; I don’t know, maybe it was The Shining coming out in 1980.
Ok there is too much crazy stuff there for me to take you seriously. If you’re a person and this is your genuine position, that makes me sad. People learn nothing from history.
I hold the positions I do because I learn from history. Here are some sources on what you call “crazy:”
Life expectancy from birth, Russia
Life expectancy from birth, China
Death rate and birth rate in Russia, before, during, and after socialism
Wealth inequality in Russia, before, during, and after socialism
US vs. Chinese vs. Cuban life expectancy
Unequal exchange, graphed
The truth is that socialism works remarkably well, and I only came to this position after studying socialism in theory and practice. Same with analyzing the downfall of capitalism and imperialism, and the failures of social democracy in Europe to pivot away from imperialism.
Ffs if birth rates went up in the third reich then people should be thankful for fascism and hitler? Was west germany a poor amd depressing dictatorship and east germany a free and prosperous country, or the other way around? Blocking.
In the case of Germany, Eastern Germany was made to pay war reparations for the incredible damages dealt to the soviet peoples, and the 27 million people they murdered. Western Germany slapped the Nazis on their wrists, and was flooded with western cash. The social safety nets in Eastern Germany were more developed and robust, while the west had more money. West Germany was indeed a dictatorship, and certainly not free and prosperous, though it had money. Eastern Germany was poor, but had much better social care, social progressivism, and more.
Go ahead, block easily verifiable facts and statistics, I’m sure that will end up helping you.
Why do you think west Germany was a dictatorship?
All states are dictatorships by a given class. West Germany was capitalist, and staffed by many remnants of the Nazi party. It was a dictatorship of capital, just as modern Germany is.