It has been a standard for quite some time to not load entire pages again if a user clicks on something or scrolls below visible area

Yes, and I hate that. The alternative gives me a complete page which is accessible with or without an active internet connection. The standard you like is a worse experience for me. Loading complete pages without javascripts is aways a faster and better experience than sites which hide content behind a javascript ‘paywall’. I think I’ll start calling it that from now on, because that’s what it is to me, a javascript paywall.

I wanted to ask you how are you even using YouTube

I don’t use GAFAM serivices. If I want to access content which is controlled by youtube (rare), then I use an invidious instance. If I want comments to load, I load the page with the tag specifying non-javascript mode.

I don’t know man.

Please don’t say that to me.

nearly all sites use it

Yep, and the ones that don’t work without it are what I call broken, and those are not sites that I care to use.

I don’t even consider people who have it disabled as I treat them same as bots.

To quote you: “This seems extreme.”

But it’s your decision, just like it’s my decision to not bother with sites like that. I’m not sure if you’re trying to convince me to comply, but that is exactly what makes me avoid a site. I don’t put up with that sort of thing anymore. It’s not worth my time.

Imagine saying “Windows is less secure than Linux, so I’m not going to make any of my apps work on windows”.

Are you unaware of Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) and that there are plenty of developers who don’t bother making things for closed systems like Windows? It’s not weird at all.

It’s like instead of dealing with it, learning how to be safer, etc, you’re shutting out.

How am I not “dealing with it” ? I don’t value sites which mistreat me, and so I avoid them. I am happier as a result. I have more comfort and self-respect, and I lose nothing.

From another of my comments:

Without javascripts, I get neat and tidy static pages that load super fast. I can have dozens of them loaded in separate tabs on my Librem 5 or Pinephone, which only have 3GB of RAM. It’s nice and comfy.

With javascripts, I get a bad experience involving

• ads
• trackers
• cookie notices
• popups & overlays
• obnoxious “chat” features
• long wait times for everything to load
• new elements pushing other elements around as they load
• pages which automatically reload/refresh without my consent
• useless effects like blur which slow down the pages significantly
• “infinite scroll” pages which fuck up my calm navigation of the page
• poorly-designed pages which aren’t easy to fix with things like web dev tools or ublock origin
• captchas
• etc. etc. etc.

I’m not seeking to convince web devs like you to design your sites to my liking, but you shouldn’t expect people like me to want to use your sites if they’re broken.

It’s rarely ever worth it to comply with the demand to allow scripts, and I resent that it is so often a demand rather than a suggestion.

It’s really just a matter of value. Odds are that I won’t value the sites even if I comply, so I just don’t bother (most of the time). Most of the web will continue to have all of the anti-features which repel me, so I’ll continue with my avoidance. I’ve adapted to the way of things. I’d like to run some services myself one day, to add to the web in a positive way, and to host my own communities. I hope that day arrives.

I feel kinda weird replying since my comment to which you replied was removed by a mod, and I have no idea why, as there is no reason given in the mod log. I had been trying to respond to the messages which I was and am unable to directly access, due to my instance’s defederation policies, but it seems that I’ve inadvertently upset someone and feel that I should probably stop interacting here, so as not to cause problems.

Thank you for your appreciation 🩷

I’m not sure why you’re quoting me there when that is not a direct quote. Other users were insisting that most of the internet “is broken” without javascript, and I simply agreed with them.

From my experience, I’d say that maybe around 50% to 70% of the time, a website I open in a new tab shows the signs of being a broken site, and I usually don’t bother to check further. Sometimes I do check and find that the site is indeed broken, but other times I find that it’s fixable.

But yeah, it feels like at least about half of the sites I randomly try to open in a new tab end up appearing broken. I’m not sure what you’re suggesting is a normal percentage, so idk if that guestimate seems reasonable or unreasonable to you. But I’ve been browsing the web like this for the past several years, so I do have a good bit of experience with this sorta thing, and that’s my honest assessment. It’s very common, but there are still lots of sites which are functional, so the web continues to have things of value to offer to me.

I made a really long comment answering those questions here.

I forgot how to properly link to comments in such a way that they will point to the comment on whichever instance is seeing them (idk how else to word that either), so I searched and found the link for your instance so it’ll be accessible to you.

If you or anyone else understands what I’m talking about and know the answer, please remind me how to properly link stuff. <3

Edit: Oh yeah, and I suppose I can investigate Void-based distros to add to the list (I am a master-procrastinator and so it will likely take quite a while)

If 90%+ of the web doesn’t work with js off then you’re either predetermining that you just won’t use 90% of the web.

You put the “either” part, but I think you forgot to put the “or” part, which in my case here is that I used to allow javascripts for all sites and access all of the worst most popular ones but have come to realize over years of experience that the javascript-dependent ones are extremely likely to be god-awful experiences (to me). So I don’t tend to bother with them anymore. That doesn’t mean I don’t occasionally get curious and investigate. It’s just that my investigations do not deviate from my expectations. So I continue to conclude the same: that things have not improved (and in fact, they have gotten worse over time).

You’ve decided that ahead of time, so you cannot really say “these sites suck” because you haven’t even been able to use them.

Based on my past experiences and random experiments, yes, I continue to conclude that those types of sites suck. The commonality is the requirement of the user to allow javascripts, which I see as forced self-harm at this point.

But the way you’re presenting it, you don’t have any trouble and just use most sites. Which I happen to know is not possible.

Idk how it seems that I actively use most sites. I would think that’s impossible of any human. I recognize patterns, and the one that’s relevant here is the quality/value (to me) of javascript-dependent sites.

Without javascripts, I get neat and tidy static pages that load super fast. I can have dozens of them loaded in separate tabs on my Librem 5 or Pinephone, which only have 3GB of RAM. It’s nice and comfy.

With javascripts, I get a bad experience involving

• ads
• trackers
• cookie notices
• popups & overlays
• obnoxious “chat” features
• long wait times for everything to load
• new elements pushing other elements around as they load
• pages which automatically reload/refresh without my consent
• useless effects like blur which slow down the pages significantly
• “infinite scroll” pages which fuck up my calm navigation of the page
• poorly-designed pages which aren’t easy to fix with things like web dev tools or ublock origin
• captchas
• etc. etc. etc.

There are so many things I hate about these types of sites, and the ones which require javascript tend to have at least a few of these awful “features”. And another major bad experience is the first one: being given a demand in order to access the page, being required to allow javascript, especially the condescending messages that are like “sorry this is required” or “you must allow javascript”. The demands are toxic/hostile and then the javascript elements themselves are an affront. The whole experience is always terrible (to me). I just want to get what I was seeking and leave in a rush to gtfo of there. It’s never pleasant for me.

Hopefully this was more clear and to the point, but if there’s anything else, please let me know and I’ll address it. I am probably the most talkative person on this platform when I actually have people and a topic.

Though, sorry again for another wall of text. It is really easy for me to just keep going and is kinda difficult to hold myself back. And again, I don’t intend for any of this to come across in a negative light. It can be difficult to create a text-based vibe that matches what I’m trying to convey sometimes. Probably doesn’t help that I’m almost always sleep-deprived.

And now I’m struggling to finish this comment, so how about an emoji 🩷

Maybe that’s more of an issue with android than Qubes OS, since flashing postmarketOS has absolutely no issues for me. idk. I also format usb drives and sd cards without issues. I’ll add this to my list of reasons to not bother with android, lol.

idk how I forgot to point that out, but thank you for doing so. Yes, without the scripts, load times are ⚡fast⚡

Þat one does seem to be þe best option for what I’d want. If/when I am ever able to get around to setting up a server of my own, I’ll probably try to setup a sourcehut instance. And I’ll probably try to upload a compressed svg here first þough, but I just need to double-triple check everyþing in it before doing so. I do procrastinate a lot, so expect delays. ^^’

It was really nice but was eventually discontinued. ublock origin can do most of what umatrix could do, and NoScript is similarly useful. But it’s also simple to just deny javascripts and call it a day. Whatever works.

Person A: “chromium-based browsers have superior security” Person B: “i use firefox-based browsers exclusively” Person A: “outrageous. it’s got inferior security” Person B: “i don’t allow scripts” Person A: “javascripts aren’t a major security concern” Person B: “firefox with scripts denied is more secure than chromium with scripts allowed” Person A: “javascripts are required for the modern web” Person B: “untrue, as evidenced by the fact that i access the modern web with scripts denied”

checkmate ♟️

@[email protected] Bugs exists. But JavaScript running in the browser have, theoretically, little access to anything. […]

The risk of allowing JavaScript on a website is more tied to the site data, or tracking. […]

It doesn’t mean every site needs JavaScript, but having this enabled by default is not that big of a security risk for the system. […]

This reminds me of an interesting phenomenon: Some security-oriented people praise the security of the surveillance-advertising corporation’s browser engine (chromium), while proclaiming that gecko-based browsers (firefox) are unusable due to inferior security. Yet the main security threat I see is that fucking surveillance-advertising corporation which spreads unvetted and often malicious ads around the web without a care in the world.

Removed by mod

Removed by mod

@[email protected] Most websites from when I was a kid did not need JavaScript. Heck, they didn’t even have any JavaScript on many of them! No CSS either, just HTML and images (which were very slow to load on dialup).

Simpler times

@[email protected] There are protocols like gemini that only have text and files, no executing code.

I’ll have to check that out one day.

Removed by mod

@[email protected] Just another piece of evidence that people care more about convenience than privacy, sadly. People aren’t willing to put up with a single broken website

Au contraire. Most people put up with broken sites all the time. The problem is that those people generally aren’t aware that the sites are broken, because they’re also unaware of the concept of allowing/denying javascripts. If they denied javascripts by default, they’d notice that most of the sites they access are actually broken sites. The ones that function without javascripts are the unbroken ones.

@[email protected] I hate javascript

Moi aussi